General Guildrules up for debate. Throw your complaints/wishes here!

(copied and pasted from old forum by spiderspy ordinary author Buculus)

This is a set of general rules which we all have to comply to. This will be modified and new rules will be added as we go along so please feel free to leave any comments / suggestions.

GENERAL RULES

I. Guild members are obliged to represent our Guild outside in a proper fashion. Any behaviour like begging for gold (as an example) will result in permanent removal from our Guild. Please act mature and use common sense.

II. Any member is obliged to advise us on absence longer than 2 weeks. Members who are off line for more than 2 weeks will be removed from Guild (being invited back is possible though) if no information was left on forums or in-game to one of our Officers / GM

III. Spamming on Guild chat is not allowed. Please use private channels or /w others if you have any issues to discuss with them. Not everyone is interested in your private 'vendettas'. Members spamming in Guild chat will receive verbal warning (/w from GM or Officer). Second warning will come as an official mail in-game from Officers or GM. Third attemtp will result in permanent removal from Guild with no chance to come back.

IV. We use only English as a language for communication in our Guild (forums and Guild chat). Good knowledge of english is a must for all members.

V. Insulting, badmouthing or childish behavior (n00b, 1!!one!!1, naaabs!!! etc.) will not be accepted. Procedures as per point 3.

VI. Not knowing things is ok as long as you ask questions. There's nothing wrong with lack of knowledge but result of it during raids is not welcome so please ask questions and we are more than happy to answer them. No question is 'noobish' to us so don't be affraid to ask even when it comes to most common things.

VII. Members of our guild should help each other if someone is stuck with their q because of alliance players ganking them. Please use common sense in this case.

VIII. Members useing private servers, buying gold or useing power leveling services will be permanently removed from our Guild. We do not want to be considered as a bunch of 'rule brakers'.

GUILD BANK

I. Guild Bank is a place where we all put items that we can't/won't use but they might be usefull to other members. This refers to materials used for leveling professions, weapons, armor and other useable items (like potions for example). This means that everyone can get any item from the bank without asking a previous owner for permission. If you have items which you don't want to share with other members please put them in your personal bank. Any item put in Guild Bank is considered as free to overall use of all members (please read point III for exceptions). Please keep this in mind when puting items in Guild Bank to avoid missunderstanding in the future.

II. Every Member can deposit gold or items in the bank Tab 2 and withdraw items from Tab 1. Only Officers / Guild Master have an access to withdraw items / gold from Tab 2. All items considered as 'for general use' will be moved by Officers / GM to Tab 1 from Tab 2 for others to withdraw them should they need them. If you have a Member status and would like to get something from the Guild Bank Tab 2 please feel free to /w any of our Officers / Guild Master and we will be more than happy to withdraw them for you. In case no Officer or Guild Master is online please mail one or the other in game and we will come back to you as soon as we get online.

To clarify once more - all deposits should go to Tab 2 only. Officers / GM will move all items considered as 'for general use' (potions, receipes, proffesions mats) to Tab 1 which is accessable to Members and any higher ranks. All other items will be stored in Tab 2. To get item from Tab 2 please /w Officer or GM in game or send in-game mail with your request.

III. As mentioned above it's not obligatory to put items in the Guild bank but would be just a good practice to do so. I belive that this will work both ways - when we take something from the bank we will also put something in there from time to time. Items from the Guild Bank are free to members who put other items in the Guild Bank for others use to keep it ballanced. In case of new members who haven't got a chance to put items in a bank or simply doesn't want to (for whatever reason) but would like to get an item that is in the bank, there will be a charge of half of AH price for this item and money from sale will go to our Guild bank account to cover repair bills.

IV. Everyone can decide themselves whether they want to put an item in a Guild Bank or sell it to vendor or put up on AH.

V. We don't put in a Guild Bank grey or low value items. Please put in there only items that are worth the space they are taking. If you put low lvl items like herbs, leather, linen cloth - make sure that you put full stacks. If you don't have a full stack please ask others if they have more of this item to add to your stack or store it temporarily in your personal bank.

VI. Maximum of 5 stacks of each item can be stored in our Guild Bank. In case there's more than 5, Officers or Guild Master are obliged to withdraw this item and put it up on AH for sale. Money from sale will go to Guild Bank account to cover repair bills. Please check how many stacks are already in the Guild Bank before you put another one. It might be better to sell it to Vendor / put up on AH and deposit money in the bank for repairs than take space with low value item.

VII. Armor and weapons stored in Guild Bank should be at least 'green' ones. Please do not put white/grey items in the Guild Bank.

VIII. Any 'green' or 'blue' items stored in the Guild Bank for over a week will be disenchanted by one of our enchanters. Disenchanting will take place on Sunday/Monday of each week. Materials from disenchanting will be put in Guild Bank and will be used by our enchanters to enchant weapon / armor of our guild members.

IX. There will be always a few Guild Tabards in the Guild Bank. These are free issue to any new members of our Guild. Please contact Offcers / Guild Master if you have not received one yet.

X. If anyone is looking for particular item that is not in the Guild bank at the moment please let us know on forums or guild chat and we will keep our eyes peeled for you.

Looting rules:

Instances:

BoE items (regardless of color)
1. all greed on item except the ones who really needs the item for main spec (if you need it for offspec please ask so before rolling need - this is to avoid offspecers roll need before mainspecers)!

BoP items (regardelss of color)
1. If we have other people in group we go for regular greed/need routine!

2. Full guild run without enchanter in party: all greed on item except the ones who really needs the item for main spec (if you need it for offspec please ask so before rolling need - this is to avoid offspecers roll need before mainspecers)!

3. Full guild run with enchanter in party: all pass except enchanter who rolls a greed so he/she can DE, get the shard, for which people are going to roll (in case all others decide to pass). If anyone need item for mainspec he rolls Need, and if anyone needs the item for offspec he/she asks before rolling need - this to avoid offspecers roll need before mainspecers!

Low - level runs in instances and raids :
All roll greed an all items.
Exception 1 - If there is an item everybody wants/needs (like specific mount or something) all roll need at that item
Exception 2 - If there is an specific item player wants/needs for whatsoever reason, he should state that at the beggining of the run so he can roll need on eventual drop

Boosts:
As per agreement between booster and boostee

In order to even out loot distribution in our raids and to give everyone a chance to progress at a similar rate (or rather to stop people hoggin all gear by the luck of a dice) we (officers) have worked out following rules.

Master Looter will be in charge of loot distribution with loot threashold set at epic.

Each person will have a chance to roll for MS items (in here are included all items which fall into your current gear/spec: rings, amulets, trinket, weapons, shields and armor)during the raid (for the current lockout period), until he has won the roll. After that he will not be able to roll again until all of the players of the current roll/spec have been awarded with one item. Once all gear/spec player have one item roll resets and all are eligable for rolls again.
CRAFTING MATERIALS: above rule also applies to crafting materials like crusader orb and primordial saronite
GEAR TOKENS: above rule also applies to gear tokens,
*NOTE: raid rolls will be made for craftaing materials, or for gear tokens which are not class specific
RECEPIES: above rule also applies to recepies (maxed out proffesion will be required), if no one has maxed out proff recepie will be awarded to player closest to maxing it first. If no one has req proffesion recepie will be raid rolled for.
As I have stated above rule applyes to all of these item types, BUT SEPARATLY meaning you CAN roll for crafting material even after you have won 1 piece of gear and 1 gear token for example.

If only 1 player can wear certain type of armor (plate, mail, leather, cloth) that loot will be awarded to that player automaticly regardless of MS and OS. (common sense will be used here and DK wont get plate intellect items for example, rather then that, item will be DEd and raid roll will be made for shard or sold for gold for GB if no enchanters are in raid). If he accepts the MS item it will count against MS roll, so he wont be able to roll until roll reset for specific role. He can accept OS items in all numbers he wishes and it wont be counted against OS roles.

There are no restrictions to OS rolls since, well, its OFF spec, and people may get loot there as much as their luck wants them too.

MAIN SPEC for the purposes of raids is the one in which player raids in and is expected to come in as. For example (Buc, Tesh, Sil, Kay - Tanks, Bere, Shanla, Abot - healers, Schaah - DPS,....) If raid requires for a player to change specs for whatever reason need less or more healers or tank he still rolls for his MS whatever roll he played for the current boss(es). In main spec also applies that you roll for the highest armor type your char can wear, and it will have prio over spec.
For example mail healing gloves drop. In the raid there is pally and shammy DPS, shammy and Pally healer. Gloves are awarded to shammy healer automaticly, which he declines to take (has better ones). After that for OS rolls shammy DPS has prio since its his type of armor. But he is dual specced in range and melee DPS, so he doesnt need them. Next OS prio goes to pally healer but he has plate healing gloves of the same lvl and declines. After that pally DPS has OS healing and takes the gloves.

I would also put an bit of an advice here. do not equip the item as soon as you get it, wait for time to expires. That way you can see what other loot is there and you can exchange between players of the same spec/rolls for better improvments. For example me and Buc are tanking and ILvL 251 drops. I win the roll and its only a small upgrade from my current iLvL 245. However Buc has some crappy 213 iLvL item in that slot. Next item is awarded to buc of iLvL 251 and it should be an upgrade from 239, but I have realy crappy iLvL200 there. SO we can exchange our winnings and get better upgrades. Some stats may also be looked here besides the ILvL as well so be imaginative and talk to fellow raiders..

Ah, its good we get some sort of rule about the distribution of loot, however, I have some points which might be under consideration, at least from a dk tank point of view.

I can see two scenarios where this might be a problem, the first: Say a 2handed weapon drops, with.. expertise, stamina and strength. This weapon would I like to have as a dk tank, but, all melee dpsers might want it as well. Which is to be selected? The melee dpsers or the tank, AND, if there's only two interested, like me and uulath for instance, and he has won the last roll for plate gloves dps, is he not allowed to roll for this weapon, even though he's the only melee 2hander dps? Or the other way around, say I just won a tanking head loot, am I not allowed to roll on the 2hander dps/tanking weapon? It might just pose a problem as to who has the right to roll. Or say that the other tank has just won a roll and I am next in line for a tanking item, and a weapon drops, and Uulath can also roll for it and gets it, then I've lost two in a row so to speak.

The other issue is also about a similar thing, this has to do with shields. If the other tank first wins a roll for a tank head, and then a shield drops, do I get 2 items hereafter or just one? Its not a big issue but, if the other tank has recieved 2 (since dks can use shield) has he 'stacked' his rolls then or? Would be nice to clear that up, since Im sure there are similar issues for other classes.

cheers, kayila - gorhq

Good points - all of them, but we have worked on similar scenarios in officers thread but tanking wasnt an issue there but rather some healer/casting gear. But Ill explain priority rolls on these cases you brought out.
It easy when you think of it that you are allowed to win one roll in one roll reset regardless if you are tank, dps, or healer or there might be some gear which criss-crosses paths so to say.
So 2hander (you are 2hander tank MS) drops you and Ulaath are eligable rollers since both him and you can use it for your jobs (you for tanking and him for DPSing). How to deal with possible scenarios:

1. Ulath won DPS gloves on some previous roll and you won nothing yet: Since only 2 possible MS rollers are eligable for that item, and Ulath has won something already in this lockout period he will be excluded from roll until all possible rollers are in possesion of 1 item from this raid. So by right of fair distribution you win the sword automaticly. Now the rolls between you two are reset and in case another (better) 2hander drops, both of you will have a chance to roll on it. However this does not clear Ulaath roll on other DPS items (for example amulets and rings for DPS) untill all of the DPSers dont have 1 piece of geare to show off.
2. If you have won the tanking head and Ulaath didnt win anything sword is his by the right of fair distribution. Just as in the case above
3. If both of you won an item before this sword dropped (Ulaath won gloves and you won the head) you both have the right to roll on it. Now lets say you won it. Other tank didnt win anything so far. That means you are 2 items ahead the other tank, and he will get the next two if they drop for the lockout period, while Ulaath is only 1 item ahead of the other DPSes.
4. You are in turn for tanking item (since other tank won something already), and Ulaath is in turn of DPS item. Sword drops. You both have the right to roll since it is tanking/dps items. You might miss on two rolls here but then again you might miss it just in the way we did it on earlier raids. Point to this loot system is not to increase number of rolls you might win, but to stop lucky buggers to get more items while rest dont get anything, to even out the loot so to say.

5. On shield issue. Yes you get two rolls then automaticly. If by any chance lets say Warrior tank takes only the head but passes on the shield (he has it already, and it goes to OS, DE) then you have only right for one free roll.

Great job on comments M8. Hope this clarifies solutions to some scenarios: Please bear in mind that these rules are not fixed in stone. We (officers) are hoping by implementing them will make possible for all to progress at the equal footing within the guild, or let us say we try to exclude luck as a factor as much as we can.

So please follow kayila/gorhq example post whats bothering you and we will try to work it out and explain possible scenarios and why do we feel it is best resolved that way.

As you know I will very rarely (if ever) raid with you guys so I'm not directly interested but i wish to say just my thoughts about this topic.

1. I agree a sort of DKP system has to be implemented. I said "a sort of" meaning that the system Officers has developed goes in that direction even if not assigning "points" to spend but rather a turnation in rolls, which is fair.

2. In the scenario Gorq/Kay imagined, tho (which is a DK tanking weap drops and that can be as well a DPS melee weap since DKs are strangely itemized tanks about weaps) I think that priority should always go to the tank, wether or not he has won a roll already. An exception should be made only if the upgrade from his actual weapon is marginal. Why this? Simply because i state the rule "priority to tank" (main spec ofc) the 1st a guild needs to follow in his progression. I know we have many well geared tanks (not me unfortunately ) in guild but that let us stronger in any case one of the tanks cannot attend a raid. If the tank is good geared enough he can supply for Healers' and DPSers' lesser gear and help the guild progress (and get better gear for Healers and DPSers as well). If tank's gear isn't good enough nor the best ever healers nor the best ever DPSers will save the raid.

Ty for reading.

Have you all a great time!

Serjo

Yeah i agree and tesh great jobb on the rules.... I might only try to put them in another way here in hope of clearefying it some more (if anyone need clarification). Also one thing worth mentioning again is that even if we are talking about "MS rolls" we realy meen "MS rolls" you win. So if you roll MS and loose then ofc you can roll MS again...

If an item drop, any item, this is whats gona happen.

1. We see what classes and spec are eligtable to roll for it as main spec.

2. We se how many winnings this players have and the one/ones whit the lowest amount of winnings, in this raid and lockout period, will then be eligtable to roll for it.

3. If this player or players dont want to roll (due to that they already have that item or its not an upgread or they want to save there roll) then the player/players (selected in step 1) whit the second lowes amount of winns get to roll on it.

4. If no MS, regardles the amounts of winns he/they already have, dont want the item then it is rolled for OS.

Ofc this system is not entiraly whitout its unfair drawbacks but it is better then the way we use to do it.... The last cases you describe Kay are such a case.... But the same goes the other way around if some tank boots drop bouth tanks roll then later a 2h wepon drops, And we dont have any Meele taht can use it, Then you will be the only MS roller on that and then be 2 winnings upp on the other tank....

In the first senario you describe we will only compair you and Ulaath when considering who will get to roll. the other tank dont have anything at all to do whit that roll sins it is not his MS.

As hase been mantion this system will only be implemanted amongs MS rollers a item will never go to an OS if a MS needs it regardles how many winnings that MS already have...

Sry serjo i wroth my post while you posted yours so i will respond here...

Well there is some throth to your point for sure but i dont think we are that hardcore yett.... Yes a good tank is important for no other reson that noone can pick up the slack of a tank like DPS and healers can do to some extent. However progress is not that important to us in this guild that we need to prioratise tanks in looting... atleast that is my point of view...

Leannah wrote:...However progress is not that important to us in this guild that we need to prioratise tanks in looting... atleast that is my point of view...

Fair enough mate, that's You the Officer(s), not me :-) and that is simply up to you to set rules and follow them . I just told what I think about that.

I don't think it's a matter of "how much our guild is hardcore or casual" (ppl may think about it differently as, for example, Happy 'n' Moo (MOO!) did when they left) but rather a matter of "do we have better chance to enjoy our raid - even wiping all the night - if the tank is better geared or not?" I think that each one enjoyes his time in game wether he's raiding or not but, when he's raiding, he's probably interested and focused on killing the boss and enjoying the encounter. Usually (with some exception of course) a better geared tank helps to beat an encounter a bit more (not immensely more, just a bit more) than a better geared DPSer. That is not always the case, nor that rule is unforgiving, but usually that happens more than the opposite. It's from this PoV that the rule "priority to tank" comes from, and i would apply that if i were casual or if i were hardcore .

See ya soon in game and have you all a great time!

Serjo

Serjo wrote:Simply because i state the rule "priority to tank" (main spec ofc) the 1st a guild needs to follow in his progression. I know we have many well geared tanks (not me unfortunately ) in guild but that let us stronger in any case one of the tanks cannot attend a raid. If the tank is good geared enough he can supply for Healers' and DPSers' lesser gear and help the guild progress (and get better gear for Healers and DPSers as well). If tank's gear isn't good enough nor the best ever healers nor the best ever DPSers will save the raid.

I don't really follow your point here, mate.. Might be me who is mistaken, but I believe that the tank can full item level 264 geared, but still doesn't matter a thing if the dps'ers "only" do 3k each on Festergut, who has to be downed in 5 minutes or on a simpler but yet similar fight like Malygos. Also healers need to be able to do healing that measures up to the tank's health.
I know you mean well, but at least from my point of view I don't think you're right on this one..

Well, just to add one more comment here. I basicly tend to agree with Berg here. First off I have been tanking for a very long time now, and have a pretty good feeling on gear value.

First off all raids are a matter of team play. That beign said every team membe have to dish out his best. Yes Serjo you are right that tanks are important in raids, maybe more so then other jobs, becouse you have to attentive, you should know tacts inside and out, and most off all, Tanks gear is important in order to soak out all of the damage boss dishes out on you. However you might have all the gear in the world, and if the healer isnt properly equipped to heal you gear wont save you. If both tank and healer are equipped with all the gear in the world, and DPS is lacking, on the bosses with enrage timer you dont stand a chance.

But there is also one other thing to consider, all of the gear brings on some amount of stamina, and OFC the higher the iLvL is the higher the stamina bonus is. All of this stamina bonus, that DPS recieves on their gear, works to make life easier on raid healers. For example take good geared tank, just enough geared healers and some good geared DPS and some poor geared DPS to an AOE damage intense figt like Malygos whirlwind. Poor geared DPS will die off in a second for simple reason their gear wasnt stacked with stamina enough, and just the right geared healers couldnt pull it off. Seen it happen. " 2 DPSers die there, and if rest arent prepared to carry those 2 places which in progress raids they seldomly are you are toasted.

I know that gearing up MT was the policy to use before, but now with all the enrage timers you simply cant put all of the eggs in one basket any more. I think that raids now have wiped MT and OT roles, jobs for tanks are in damend for good gear whatever you do, so even there you cant favour one tank over the others as it was done before. Whats the use of one completly geared tank and one half way when theyll be in situations where they must suffer completly same stuff. THis fight like festergut is the real gearcheck of the whole raid, and if any role is lacky in any way you dont have a chance.

I as a tank, can say that tank prioritising times are over. At least in my eyes. But as Bergie pointed out I stand to be proven wrong.

We always try to be fair and balance the loot as best we can but i will try to list the main rules here but this will be a work in proggres aswell so plz make sure to check it from time to time for updates...

First off all we roll for loot Main spec (MS) roll before Off spec (OS). The MS are Tank, DPS, Healer and ofc armorclass specific (meening a pala cant roll MS on Spellpower Clouth for instent). Furthermore other MS prioraties are MP5 for healers, Hit for DPS, Hunters for Range wepons (except tanking guns)

We also implement a "only one MS roll per raid" meening if something dropps and "player A" already have gotten a MS roll and "player B" need it on MS then "player B" will have prioraty. However if "player B" passes then "player A" will get to roll on it before any OS roll is done.

Regarding MS roll for DPS we will not differ between diffrent range DPS spec or Meele DPS specs but we will alow diffrent MS and OS DPS spec if it is between range and meele. Meening a mage, for instans, will roll MS only on DPS regardless if it is for his Fire or arcane spec likewice for a rouges combat and assiasin spec but a shaman, for instens, can roll MS on Elemental and OS on Enhanst.

Looting rules will not be changed ones in raid but might be change along the way between raids. This because we are not so narrow minded that we beleew our system to be perfect but might need some tweeking...