Cataclysm raid changes

Berg Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:46 am

Dno, if you've seen this, but this looks really good in my opinion at least Smile

I'm especially looking forward to being able to pick single bosses on heroic mode.. For instance I think we could do first 4 bosses in IC10 on heroic mode as we stand right now, but sadly we don't have that option in raids... yet... Smile

Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements
Cataclysm will change a couple of things to the raiding system apparently. "Too long didn't read" version:

* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.
* Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
* For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.

Shanla Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:51 pm

I agree, these changes look incredibly nice Very Happy

Especially that the same loot will drop on 10 and 25 man, can only applaud that Wink

I guess when cata hits we'll just forget about 25 man raids (unless we can get 25 guildies online ofc Wink

) and solely focus on 10-mans. Come to think of it, isn't that what we're doing already? Razz

Leannah Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:19 am

well im tourn accualy i think the same loot in but better sounds abit boaring... Sad

. Also charing the same lockout whit 10 and 25 man well i dont rightly knowe. I do like that you have to choose but i hope we want suffer player pugging 25 man insteed of helping out in guild 10 man. But the HC boss thing sounds great... Smile

Buculus Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:24 am

You can change difficulty in raid already if you have King Slayer in group. There are already groups doing for example Battleship fight on HC mode while in 10 or 25 man. King Slayer can change difficulty of raid just before you start the boss encounter Smile

Only thing is we don't have any King Slayers in guild yet Razz

Getting 10 and 25man raids to the same level will make our lifes way easier Smile

No need to PuG 25man when we don't have enough people in guild Smile

We'll be able to do 2x10man runs if needed or just get 1 25 man and taking in account that dificulty level and loot treshold is the same we won't need better geared people for 25 man.

Looks good Smile

And Lea - why would you need 25 man if difficulty and loot stays the same? This way I don't care about shared lockout period as whichever you go for you have same stuff waiting for you.

Leannah Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:32 am

Wont the loot in 25 man be the same as in 10 man but better? Meening that the loot in 25 man will be better then the ones in 10 man like it is now 10 man compair to 10 man HC? Or am i miss reading this

Berg Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:34 am

Well, for me this is great, since I hate pugging those big raids.. And it only seems fair to smaller guilds. Imo we work just as hard as the bigger guilds, why should we miss out on getting all the best loot in guild runs? Smile

Buc: Didn't know about that option, but it sounds nice.. Smile

Teshija Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:38 am

Finnaly looks like Blizzard looks out for us working married folks, with wives with evil eyes!

Shanla Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:50 am

Leannah wrote:Wont the loot in 25 man be the same as in 10 man but better? Meening that the loot in 25 man will be better then the ones in 10 man like it is now 10 man compair to 10 man HC? Or am i miss reading this

10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.

It will drop the exact same loot, but on 25 man there will only be more drops than on 10 man. Sort of like 2 drops on 10 man per boss, 4 drops on 25 man per boss. The loot itself will stay the same it seems Smile

Buculus Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:02 am

Berg wrote:Buc: Didn't know about that option, but it sounds nice..

We just need to down Lich King and then we'll have an option to pick HC mode on single boss fights Smile

Lea - as Shanla said it looks like items will be the same but in 25 man you'll have more loot on boss Smile

Leannah Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:23 am

quntitive and qualaty... Smile

sounds simular... Smile

now i see

Serjo Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:22 am

I don't like the change to raid system, in particular the "sharing lockout" on raids thing.
That will be the death of "casual" raiders, whose only chance to raid is Pugging.
Right now "casuals" have the chance to PUG 2 raids a week, while on a shared lockout basis they will only have one.
All of us know what the problem of Pugging raids is: you never know how far yuo are going to go, yuo can never know if anyone is going to suddenly leave, many ppl leave after first wipe (while maybe yuo killed one Boss and so you already wasted yuor weekly save) ... and so on.
Nowadays yuo can have bad luck and get caught in a bad Pug for either 10 or 25 men, but yuo can as well have better luck and get in a decent one at least for one size.
I don't like the fact that loot is the same level as well for both 10 and 25 men: that will substantially mean death to 25 men raiding which are harder to organize, harder to setup properly and should be harder to complete and thus have better loot. The statement that 10 men and 25 men will have about the same difficulty and the exact same loot means that developers won't care about creating different mechanics for 10 and 25 men: i foresee development being focuesd on 10 men only (which wil be the vast majority of raids for the above said reason) and having 25 men with mobs on a 2xHP basis and nothing more.
Boss won't be able to hit harder in 25 men since loot available will be the same. AOE mechanics won't allow ppl to get damaged more in 25 men than in 10 men for the same reason. That is quite poor game design while i do understand that it will require much less effort on develping which will save a lot of money on Blizzard side.
Yes this is a rant Smile

.
Have you all a great time (until il lasts Razz

).

Serjo

Berg Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:50 pm

I see you and I totally disagree on this subject, Serjo.. Not that it should tear us apart.. Smile

I find 25-man way to big a raid, and I'm glad I wasn't around when 40-man raids was an option.. Shocked

As I understand it, bosses will have more health in 25-man modes, so there will still be plenty of "possibilities" for people to screw up and die.. Also I wonder why there should be more aoe dmg? If people can get 3-hit from Marrowgar's AOE in 10-man, why should they then be 1-hit in 25-man? Either way there will be more AOE dmg in 25-man for healers to heal through, simply because of the fact that the boss have more targets to hit.

As you probably know I'm one of those who almost never pug 25-man raids simply because it's not fun.. And tbh I'm start to feel a bit left behind on gear compared to those of you who does that.. For instance I haven't had a new item for over 1 month now, not I wanna complain a lot about it since I was very lucky when IC10 just came out, but like everyone else I enjoy getting an upgrade every now and then. If I could get that upgrade through guildrun, that would make so much happier than if I was forced to pug in order to do it Smile

On a last note; I'd like to think that there will be more than just 1 raid to get gear from at a time, maybe it's just a silly dream, but Blizzard is after all implementing Ruby Sanctum within the next couple of months, which should have same item level as Icecrown Citadel, giving 2 raid options for gear and 3 if you count VoA in as well.. At least that's something I hope they will keep doing in cataclysm as well.. Smile

Serjo Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:07 am

Berg wrote:I see you and I totally disagree on this subject, Serjo.. Not that it should tear us apart..

Eheh Ofc not Smile

Berg wrote: I find 25-man way to big a raid, and I'm glad I wasn't around when 40-man raids was an option..

I was around then, but raiding was such a so different thing then now it is that yuo cannot compare.
At any rate clearing MC with 40 ppl did give a "epic" feeling Smile

Berg wrote: As I understand it, bosses will have more health in 25-man modes, so there will still be plenty of "possibilities" for people to screw up and die.. Also I wonder why there should be more aoe dmg? If people can get 3-hit from Marrowgar's AOE in 10-man, why should they then be 1-hit in 25-man? Either way there will be more AOE dmg in 25-man for healers to heal through, simply because of the fact that the boss have more targets to hit.

I'll try to clarify my thought on this.
Ofc Bosses will have to have more health on 25-men. What I was writing was something different. What i mean is that there is no way a 10 men raid can be at the same difficulty of a 25 men raid.
In a 10 men environment yuo are limited to a strict setup (2 tanks, 2-3 healers, 5-6 DPS). You cannot count on every available buff since yuo don't simply have enough ppl and the needed variety of classes. On DPS side you could be "unbalanced" over melee or over ranged. You have only 10 ppl to fill a certain area. Yet in order to be a viable setup Develpers need to balance 10 men raids to be doable with this setup.

In a 25 men environment, instead, yuo will probably have all available buffs. Your setup will probably be 3 tanks (1 with DPS offspec) 5-7 healers rest DPS. On DPS side you will probably have balanced melee and ranged. But you will have 25 ppl to fill the same area.
Nowadays developers can (and sometimes do, sometimes don't) add different game mechanics for 10 and 25 men since they can cont on different gear for 10 and 25 men and having those min/maxing thing (buffs etc) in mind. That leads to have ppl decked in 25 men gear to overgear 10 men content and ppl decked in 10-men-gear-only find it challenging (but still doable) to raid 25 men content. Tanks, healers and DPSers in 25 men gear (all of them) now have more HP, more mitigation/avoidance (tanks) more DPS (DPSers) more HPS (healers). That's why Bosses hit harder in 25 men, AOE mechanics do wider damage in 25 men and so on.

What i wrote doesn't mean that 10 men content is always easier than 25 men (even if it should be in developer's mind). Think at Sarth 3D 10 men at WoTLK launch (it was the hardest encounter until Uld was released). Think at Saurfang or Fester 10 men when yuo're short on ranged DPS. They're not tuned over the average 10 men raid, thus 10 men (in those cases) is significantly harder than 25 men. They are not even. One is harder than the other. That's simply because yuo cannot tune the same encounter over 10 men and 25 men due to the huge differences in raid setup.

Now think at the scenario we're going to get in Cata. Loot will be the very same for both 25 and 10 men. That means that the standard scenario will have to be tuned over the "unbalanced" and "strict" 10 men setup otherwise either 10 men content will be undoable (and that would be a failure design) or 25 men content will be undertuned. While now yuo can tune encounters being loot available to ppl raiding as a factor, in Cata it won't be. So if developers want to make 10 men content doable they will necessarily tune mechanics to the average 10 men. 25 men will be left behind. If now a 10 men tank and a 25 men tank can (and do) have 5k HP difference unbuffed (which will be much more having all 25 men buffs available to one and not to the other) 10 men Boss will (and does) hit for less than 25 men Boss. In Cata those tanks will start at the very same HP. 25 men Boss won't be able to hit for that much more, or the tank will simply die too easily. Healers-wise it's obviously the same (a 10 men healer has enough HPS to sustain his 10 men tank while a 25 men healer has enough HPS to sustain his 25 men tank). DPS-wise: idem
Too long already: with the same loot available it is impossible to tune 10 men and 25 men at the same difficulty.

Berg wrote: As you probably know I'm one of those who almost never pug 25-man raids simply because it's not fun.. And tbh I'm start to feel a bit left behind on gear compared to those of you who does that.. For instance I haven't had a new item for over 1 month now, not I wanna complain a lot about it since I was very lucky when IC10 just came out, but like everyone else I enjoy getting an upgrade every now and then. If I could get that upgrade through guildrun, that would make so much happier than if I was forced to pug in order to do it

I get your point here m8. If i could guild run i wouldn't bother to Pug any Smile

. I do understand you don't like 25 men, but maybe it's because you count on regular 10 men guild runs. Put yourself in my place: if yuo can never guild run i'm sure yuo would PUG 25 men as well

Berg wrote: On a last note; I'd like to think that there will be more than just 1 raid to get gear from at a time, maybe it's just a silly dream, but Blizzard is after all implementing Ruby Sanctum within the next couple of months, which should have same item level as Icecrown Citadel, giving 2 raid options for gear and 3 if you count VoA in as well.. At least that's something I hope they will keep doing in cataclysm as well..

I hope so. Nevertheless the thing is that up to TLK "small" and "big" raids were separate. ZG was 20 men only, MC BWL, NAX (original) were 40 men. Only expeption was AQ.

Same in TBC: Kara was 15, ZA was 10. SSC, TK, MH etc were 25. They were not the same raid. They were different instances. In TLK they made 10 and 25 men version of the same raid which led to som imbalancing (what i wrote about Sart, Saurfang etc), but still developers had different loot to tune them
In Cata we will have the same raids but the same loot for both size. I don't see that working especially if sharing lockout will impede you to run the same raid on both sizes.

Have you all a great time!

Teshija Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:34 am

Well my thoughts on this goes two ways basicly.

From one point of view I see Serjos point and I must agree to all that he has said. But in all fairness from every move that blizzard made people were afraid that the game will be unbalanced, broken and what not but in the end it works for the most.

I am looking at it from this point:
I am paying for the game same as everyone else and for the money I give in I should be eligable for the same thing everyone else is. And I am really. But life does not work like that. I have a very limited time table, trying to fit in work, family life, friends, dogs, sports and gym and that leaves very small time table to play WoW. Now I always feel kinda stupid for dishing out same money as let us say someone with much more free time on his hands and basicly paying for content there is a small chance ill see (its not the money issue since the cash aint all that big, but rather a principle of the thing).
I bearly have time to go organised 10 man let alone pugging 25, only to get let go couse my gear sucks (it doesnt but its beside the point) or lack of achivment for not beign able to play for 2 months and not being aroun when everyone got their achi,... etc.

If I was designer i would put raids to 15 man which I think it really is a reasonable number with a heroic option for more hardcore people but still doable for people with not too much time on their hands. Basicly I would leave PvE for all to enjoy on more or less equall footing since it really is in PvE there is a fire, you must get out of fire...Its supposed to be relaxing and fun.
On the other hand I would make PvP maybe a bit more competetive with gear and rewards getting better as you go along.

To sum it up: in PvE I think we all should enjoy a nice relaxing time in the game having fun and kicking back (what a game really should be), and for PvP for truly hardcore people who do or want to excell in skills of gaming. I mean I am aware i dont stand a chance against some punk kid playing this and other games like there is no tommorow. And I dont wanna even try. Some fun moments in arena, sure but real competition aa not for me. But I wanna same chance to get a damned mount that drops only from 25 content as everyone else since I am paying for it as everyone else and not be limited by any in game factor.

Main reason here is that there simply is not a skill requirament increase between 10 and 25 man. Only increase in free time, and shit load of luck. Only place where skill does indeed count here is in PvP and there is where it should be valued.

Well at least as I see it. And yes I am jelous at people with tons of free time Very Happy

Shanla Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:49 am

Although I do see your point there Serjo, I don't completely agree with you there. Don't forget to look at the overall picture of what they're changing. MP5, defense, SP, AP(?) and other stats are completely disappearing from the game. Instead we now have to only look at talents, the standard stats (str, int, agi, spi, sta) and the new path of the titans system. This will probably already add difficulty on its own, let alone if they change the raiding system a bit.

As in differences in 10 man and 25 man, to be honest, I don't think there will be that much difference from what we see now. Bosses hit harder on tanks, more spread out AoE dmg and in specific cases, more spawned mobs (deathwhisper, saurfang) and mind control (KT, deathwhisper). But you can already say that this is purely because there are more players in the raid than a 10 man. I've always thought that the difficulty is already the same, only tuned to the number of players present. That's why I can only applaud to the decision that both raids will now drop the same type of loot Smile

. The only the reason I can think why it's harder is because of spacing in the room of an encounter (when you have to spread out 10 yards for example).

As for the shared lockout, I think this is a direct result of the same loot in both raids. If they didn't do this, people will have 2 shots at the same loot per week, instead of the 1 shot we currently have. I do understand here why it will be tough for players who tend to pug a lot as they can now only try one raid where they used to be able to try two.

While we're thinking back, I was present during vanilla with the 40-man raids. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to do one because I was a casual player back then (cause I had to go to bed at 23:00 from my mum Razz

). Basically, you had to be in a guild who was capable of organizing these runs or else you wouldn't be able to see any end content.

Buculus Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:24 am

Don't forget one more thing - they said that emblems will be replaced by some kind of points system (like honor for pvp now) for which you'll be allowed to buy tier items. 25 man raids will award more points per boss killed than 10 man so I can't see them gone completely. Firstly you'll have more loot and number of loot will not be directly multiplied by 2.5. They say that when 10 man might drop 2 items per boss then 25 man might drop 6 or more plus additional valor points so it will be still vital to run 25man raids.

If you are worried about number of points/loot per week don't forget that they plan to release plenty of different raids (short and long ones like VoA and Ice Crown) so you might not have enough time during the week to run them all (if you stay casual) which means running same instance as 10 and 25man might not be neccessary since there'll be plenty of other raids to choose from.

Funny thing they also said is that pvp points will be tradeable for pve points and vice versa with some loss as exchange cost Razz

Berg Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:38 am

As I understand it the "emblem" system remains the same except the name will always be hero points and valor points instead of new emblems when a new tier is out.. WHEN a new tier is out in cataclysm your valor points will be converted to hero points.. Smile

Buculus Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:53 am

Here:

Blizzard just posted changes to the badge system in Cataclysm... they are going to become Hero and Valor points! Basically the PvP point system being applied to PvE raiding. Hero Points will be earned from most dungeons (much like Emblem of Triumph) and Valor Points will be from high-tier raids (like Emblem of Frost).

While there will be a maximum cap of Valor Points you can earn each week I personally think this could be one of the better changes to come to the badge/emblem/point system since the introduction of them in The Burning Crusade. So what does everyone think of the changes?

On the PvP side, Conquest Points will replace Arena Points as the complement to Honor Points. Personal rating requirements will also be removed from almost all items, including weapons.

You can read all the details in the original blue post, available after the break.
Bashiok said:
We're continuing to refine the badge/emblem and PvP point systems in Cataclysm and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

Our primary goal when approaching badges in Cataclysm is to address a lot of the confusion that comes with these currency systems. To that end we're changing badges to a more straightforward point system, similar to the ones we've used for a while for Arenas and Battlegrounds. There will be a total of four types of points you can earn in Cataclysm (two for PvE and two for PvP), and these will remain the same even as we introduce new content.

Here's the breakdown:

PvE
Hero Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most dungeons. (most like the current Emblem of Triumph)
Valor Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, as well as a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from Dungeon Finder daily Heroic and from raids. (most like the current Emblem of Frost)

PvP
Honor Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most PvP activities.
Conquest Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, and a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from winning Rated Battlegrounds or Arenas. (currently called Arena Points)

When a new tier of raiding gear is released or a new PvP season begins, your higher tier of points will be converted into the lower tier. For instance, if a new tier of raid gear is released, your Valor points will be converted to Hero points, and similarly if a new PvP season begins your Conquest points will be converted to Honor points. Of course that means with these new releases you'll always begin without any of the higher tier of points, and thus be unable to stockpile them.

As noted for Conquest points, the Rated Battlegrounds and Arenas will be sharing this same point type. Because of that, it will in fact be possible to get the best PvP items without setting foot in Arena; however, more powerful armor and weapons will of course require more Conquest points, so players who win their matches more often will still gear up faster. We're removing personal rating requirements on almost all items; they're definitely removed for weapons. We might offer a few items to the absolute best players based on personal rating, largely as cosmetic or 'bragging rights' type items. And you'll have the option of purchasing the previous season’s gear with the more readily available Honor points.

We do plan to have a way to convert Honor points (PvP) into Hero points (PvE), and vice versa, at a loss. The conversions will be possible, but it won't be a 1:1 rate, and you'll have fewer points after the conversion process. We won't allow the higher tiers to be exchanged for each other, however.

To explain the reasoning for the weekly cap on points for the higher tiers, this is to provide flexibility in how players choose to earn the points without feeling like they have to do all of the content as often as it is available. If your Valor income from raiding is sufficient, you may not feel the need to run Dungeon Finder every night, or perhaps even at all. Likewise, a PvP player could choose to participate in a lot of Rated Battlegrounds but no Arenas, or focus on both, and still be able to earn the points they want.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

Looks like there'll be a weekly cap as well Smile

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