Rading time and Rules - Discusion

Well the fall is here and i think we should discuse some raiding time and rules...

First i suggest we raid every Wensday, Thursday and Sunday from 8 pm to 11 pm. I knowe not everyone can raid all the time and it is imposible find 3 days a week that all can raid but hopfully this way all have the chanse to raid some of the time.

Right now we have a shortige of tanks so unfortunatly we have to work abit around Sil and my shadual untill Tesh, Emi and Buc have time to raid a bit more regular.... So Wendsday might be monday instead if it suits sil better...

Now to raiding ruels

Raids will be anounse in game on the callander and it is also there we will sign up for raids.... Anyhow i suggest 3 rules for this signup...

1. First come first served. The ones who signed up first will get spots in raid first. Pending 2 things, first we have a position for them e.i. for example if we need a Healer or a meele intrupter we have to take them instead of a Tank or range DPS that sigend up earlier. Secoundly We have to have a certain Gear requirement. We are right now prograsing Ulduar and everybody need to pull ther weight. I have no problem helping newly dinged 80 in HC or Naxx sins i (we) have the knowlige and gear to pick up the slack in there. But in ulduar we are struggaling as it and its not fair to the other 8 in raid if we for instans take along 2 newly dinged 80 for a 3 hour whipe parry... I hope everyone understand and agree on that... i (we) dont want to be mean just fair to the rest of the raid....

2. Pepoul already saved for a raid and are signed up will get spots before thouse not saved. This cause its not fair to for instens sign up for wendsdays raid knowe you will not have a spot for thursday raid. OFC you do have to be signed up for the raid and in a timly fasion as well. A player that are saved on a raid showing up 1 hour before the raid expecting to raid but not signed up will not be given a spot before one already signed up several days earlier. I have no exakt time in mind here and also hope it will not be nessasery but i think at least 24 hours heads up that you want to come to raid is not to much to ask..... Also i suggest that this "saved befor nonsaved" players will only be valid for 1 extantion if we deside to do that...

3. If your late you lose your spot. Its simple you snoose you loose.... OFC sometime the unforseen happens and that is np and we will not blame that player however if there are replaysments online we will not wait sins we only raid 3 hours at the time. This meens that as of 8.00 pm that player is late even if that player says he/she will only be 5 min late. This cause if we alow 5 min wait then we can alow 10 min wait the next time and then the next time 15 min. Its a slipery slope so to be fair to all involved if a player is not logged in or have been logged in (DC or relogging char) at the time the raid start we are taking in replaysments...

I like to hear what you all think of this? i tryed to be as fair a posible whene i thought about the rulles and time... Also im not sure i can come on every raid if i cant come to a raid i anounsing i will say so in the discription...

Sounds perfectly fair to me, for what my opinion matters.
That's the reason why i will probably never sign up for a raid since they will start way too early for my raiding time but odds are that it can happen sometimes that a "replacement" spot will open for ppl like me who are online later than average .

Have yuo all a great time!

Serjo

Good to hear Serjo and Yeah its hard to make it all fittin... but as you say you can jump in from time to time as replaysment and also if im ever on Lea you can take my spot from time to time when your online...

Can't raid tuesdays and thursdays.. All other days are generally fine for me.

Sounds about right those rules, Id like to see more in the ways of preparation though, such as, be ready for invite and at the raid 10-15 mins before the raid starts. The raid, the actual first pull ought to be at 20.00 actually and not later due to summons, some gear missing, flasks missing, buff food etc.

Id like to advice everyone also to have at least the addons deadly boss modes and omen downloaded and active for Ulduar, since DBM is really very helpful (not to say necessary) and Omen so you dont take aggro, cause in some later fights, not taking aggro can be crucial.

Well, thats my two cents for now, cheerio.

Oh, and I forgot one thing: If you sign up for a raid you should be able to stay for the duration! I mean, if we raid for 3 hours, you cant leave after 1.5 leavning 9 others standing.

Sounds ok mate I agree with Gorhq here - if we say we start raid at 8pm and we only have 3h to raid then everyone is expected to be online at 7.45 to allow for summons, invites, etc. If someone can't come early he/she should log out at meeting stone or at raid entrance on the day before so that he/she is ready to enter raid at 8pm sharp (with all consumables already in back pack). This way we'll really have 3h to raid and not 2.5h. At the moment people log in at 8pm (or are few min late), then we put grp together, move to meeting stone, look for replacements if someone doesn't show up, etc, etc, and as a result we start at 8.30pm the earliest which leaves us with 2.5h for riding. I suggest we announce that raid starts at 7.45pm so that everyone's online by then and we have first pull at 8pm sharp.

Also I'd like to add few words to what Gorhq said about time frame and avaliability for full duration of raid. I think we can't expect anyone to be ready to raid for 3h straight as we all have our IRL stuff and problems which sometimes won't allow us to stay till 11pm BUT having said that if you know you won't be able to stay for the full duration you have to let Officers or GM know AT SIGN UP STAGE (or as soon as you know you'll have to cut your play time on this particular eveing) that you can stay till 10pm (for example) top and we (me and Officers) will look for replacements before hand to be ready to quickly get someone new on board in the middle of the raid without loosing time. If we have this information at hand we can leave MOTD and thread on forums saying that we'll be looking for someone who could come (for example) after 10pm to replace X (here name, role and class of person leaving early) and stay till 11pm (or till whatever we have agreed at the start). I guess this would be nice opportunity for people like Serjo, who can't raid early, to jump in and have some fun. And I agree here that it won't look good if someone says at 9.55pm that he/she has to go now leaving 9 of us standing and wondering what to do now...

I know this has got nothing to do with me, but i thought i'd voice my thoughts.


If your going to raid then you realy need to get the ground rules set down and stick with them. I know you've had this problem before.

Seeing as your raiding casualy then its even more important to get the rules set, so that everyone knows how/what/why and when they have to do things - Theres no need to waste time on unnecessary things ( Waiting for late comers, people pulling out early ), when time is short anyway.

Plus raiding doesn't have to be a job. As long as everyone knows and stick by the rules, why should it be a slog?
If you know you can't raid till the end or are going to be late, then tell the raid leader. Leaving this information is about as helpful as a chocolate fire guard, and your just jacking on the team.

I know, i know...its all very well pointing out what should be happening or is obvious. But thats the point. If it should be happening, why isn't it? If its obvious, why isn't it addressed and being sorted.


Raid annoucement: 2 days - 1 week before the raid.

Last sign up by: The night before the raid.

Possible absences/leaving late/joining early: The night before the raid. ( I know stuff pops up duing the raid at times, but this realy shouldn't happen alot....shouldn't but does ).

AddOns required: Shouldn't even need addressing. If you want to make the raid longer, harder, more expensive and less fun. By all means just ignore the addons that are designed to help your gaming experience. No excuse imo.

Loot: No idea what you guys are doing about loot these days, but i guess you've got it covered.

Consumables: See " AddOns ". Repalce the word addon with consumables.

To that end a list with the times everyone can / prefer to raid should be made. That way people know where they stand and can actualy think about the times before they sign up. Its fair on the guild and on each other.

Note: Its worrying to see that the magority of the guild hasn't said there piece. Problem can't be solved with a discusion between 4/20 of the guild.

Note: By all means, tell me to keep my nose out this if you so please

Note: Who missed by rants? Eh? Eh?



~ Akaris.

Akaris wrote:I know this has got nothing to do with me, but i thought i'd voice my thoughts.

Oh Akaris do shut up. You were here from the start and you were one of the original raiding team. Besides, who says you wont be joining us from time to time in raids eh?

For yestrday I would like to appologise since LEa more or less twisted my arm to come and I have come unprepared meaning didnt read the tacts, but that was covered up by gorq's excellent leadership and hands on knowledge I think. Now when this is out of the way. I would like to add few things I saw missing.

As I said In some post waay back if the raid time is from 8.00. PM, tank should charge at 8 pm, not starting summs at 8 pm. If you cant stay for 3 hours please dont applay there wil be other days to do it. We have a solid number of people to go raiding every night on 10 mans not necesserely ulduar but we can have fun in old 10 mans or even some pre WOTLK raids for achivments. Adons, vent, flasks, pots food if someone have it should all come with us. People shouldnt be applying without at least working headseat so they can hear tacts and decisions and impromptu orders. Gorhq had a lot of solid points.

Its been said a thousund times already but I think we should be getting a bit serious about this. Guild feel will always be the same but we NEED to get raids in order, if we are all to have fun. Main reason is this: we are all pretty much busy IRL, so those 3 or 6 hours a week an individual can spare for raids should be quick and efficient as possible.

And as always we need to get more folks on the forum.
I have some new and rather radical ideas, so we ll first discuss them in officers subforum and then well put it on general. Dont know if Ill make it to post today but tommorow it will be there.

Putting down the foot I meant to say raids are most fun when there is order in the room. Sounds impossible but it is. Remember the last few Nax runs when we stormed there like crazy without any incidents? The feel will come back.

On my raid times it is a definite nono on mondays, wensdays and fridays for me. All other days are pretty much working.

Akaris wrote:I know this has got nothing to do with me, but i thought i'd voice my thoughts.

Ke?

As Tesh said - I can't see any reason not to see you back in raiding team Unless you don't want to raid anymore...

We all know where problems are yet we can't overcome them. People are coming late and not prepared (to be fair and honest happened to me as well once or twice when I logged on late or didn't have pots in back pack ) but the main problem is lack of our members on forums. I'm here with Aka - if only 4 or 5 peeps are involved in sorting stuff out and rest doesn't even realize we have this kind of discussion here it's all pointless...

EDIT: As to my raiding time I can't give any particular days that work better for me as my IRL is a mess atm. I have family visiting me over next week or two, my brother in-law, friends of ours coming for a weekend or two and so on and so on. On the top of this I'm up to my ears at work and sometimes I have to work late or over the weekends... (perks of the job, eh?). I hope it'll improve soon but for the moment I'll step out a bit. You have great tanks, dpss and healers already so one smelly orc slacking won't be an issue. I focused on leveling Hark in BGs as it doesn't involve that much focus and I can leave any time without harm to rest of peeps playing (not possible when raiding). When my situation will improve (and I hope it will), I'll let ya know but by then I'll be probably so behind gear-wise that you all proos will only take me for a short walk in Naxx

Buculus wrote:

Akaris wrote:I know this has got nothing to do with me, but i thought i'd voice my thoughts.

Ke?

As Tesh said - I can't see any reason not to see you back in raiding team Unless you don't want to raid anymore...

We all know where problems are yet we can't overcome them. People are coming late and not prepared (to be fair and honest happened to me as well once or twice when I logged on late or didn't have pots in back pack ) but the main problem is lack of our members on forums. I'm here with Aka - if only 4 or 5 peeps are involved in sorting stuff out and rest doesn't even realize we have this kind of discussion here it's all pointless...

We have a saying: ''to many nannys will spoil the child.''

No more talk check the officers tab. hehe

Teshija wrote:check the officers tab

Done

One thing on the forum yes i agree it would be good having pepoul here but how do we get that done? that is the million dolar question.... I think the sign up prosses ingame is rather good and my point of view is this. You involve yourself as mutch as you want.... That has always been the DR way.. but be prepaired to maybee get bumpt if you dont have VENT or DBM instaled, If we see you late for a raid we say " sry your late mate check the forum for raiding rulles, no offence..." i think pepoul will accept that. Some pepoul just want to play and not be in a desition making procces and that is fine i think as long as they then accept the rulles that have been disided.... And whit the walls of posts we genarely produse who can blame them it take just 1-2 hours to read and respond... if you dont have Internet at work you never have time to play...

All kidding aside i have started implementing this rulles and have just gotten positive responses ... pepoul accept me saying "sry mate you dont have gear" and "sry mate your late".... I knowe this might make me out to be "the bad" guy at least i thought i would but it looks alright i think...

So i think whene the rulles are up we port in GMOTD "Se forum for new raiding rules or ask officers" and then follow those rulles stricktly...

Leannah wrote: Some pepoul just want to play and not be in a desition making procces and that is fine i think as long as they then accept the rulles that have been disided...

This!

If you dont wanna be involved in decision making then yield to decidions that are made for you!

Teshija wrote:

Leannah wrote: Some pepoul just want to play and not be in a desition making procces and that is fine i think as long as they then accept the rulles that have been disided...

This!

If you dont wanna be involved in decision making then yield to decidions that are made for you!

That's fine as long as everyone will make themselves familiar with new rules. If they don't want to be on forums - ok, it's not a must but at least come here and read new rules so that you know what's what. Simple as it is.

Buculus wrote:

Teshija wrote:

Leannah wrote: Some pepoul just want to play and not be in a desition making procces and that is fine i think as long as they then accept the rulles that have been disided...

This!

If you dont wanna be involved in decision making then yield to decidions that are made for you!

That's fine as long as everyone will make themselves familiar with new rules. If they don't want to be on forums - ok, it's not a must but at least come here and read new rules so that you know what's what. Simple as it is.

Agree...

I can raid mondays, wensdays, thursdays and sundays, only tues are out for me during the week and the rest of the weekends are out.

I've just encountered what I think is a rather unfair issue with the 'first come first serve' signup. This means that the ones who just did a raid (as last sundays toc10) have a HUGE advantage over the rest of us since those in that raid were online, on vent etcetera, to know exactly and be told 'now the raid for next week will be put in the calander, sign if you want to join'. This means, if all who are in that raid signs, the rest of the guild must be online and just check the calanader or whatnot for the entire duration of the raid and try and make sure you have a chance of signing when that raid is finished. Also this system might be misused by offciers (or anyone else putting up raids) as they can choose when to annonce a raid, they can check, ah, those three healers are online at the moment, I like them to come, but I DONT want this or that to come, so I'll put the raid up now, tell these three healers, and they'll sign first. This does not sound as a fair system to me, to be frank.

/gorhq - kayila

gorhq wrote:I've just encountered what I think is a rather unfair issue with the 'first come first serve' signup. This means that the ones who just did a raid (as last sundays toc10) have a HUGE advantage over the rest of us since those in that raid were online, on vent etcetera, to know exactly and be told 'now the raid for next week will be put in the calander, sign if you want to join'. This means, if all who are in that raid signs, the rest of the guild must be online and just check the calanader or whatnot for the entire duration of the raid and try and make sure you have a chance of signing when that raid is finished. Also this system might be misused by offciers (or anyone else putting up raids) as they can choose when to annonce a raid, they can check, ah, those three healers are online at the moment, I like them to come, but I DONT want this or that to come, so I'll put the raid up now, tell these three healers, and they'll sign first. This does not sound as a fair system to me, to be frank.

/gorhq - kayila

I understand where you're coming from with this Gorhq but I have to disagree with you that we only base on 'first come first in' signup system. Yes, you are right that putting up a raid should not only be announced on vent but maybe as MOTD as well in the same time yet check raid setups and compare who signed up when. Apart from 'first come first served' we also have a system to rotate people in raids. Take me for example - I was one of the first who signed up for tonight's raid but I will have to sit this one as we will rotate people and take on board people who signed up later but haven't been into raid yet. I think you've seen yourself while raiding with us that we not always take people who signed up as first ones so I think this comment is bit unfair.

Yes, I agree with you on announcements part. Fair enough. I take your point here but I can't agree that we take only those who signed up as first ones. I think you encountered this situation last week when Hoegenisse took tanking spot in Onyxia 10. He switched to tanking like 2 weeks ago and he's geared for it so we decided to give him a chance as well even though he was not one of the first ones who signed up.

I appreciate your comment here as only by hearing from our guild mates we can improve our raiding and system of getting people on board. What I don't like in your post is accusation that we (GM and Officers) have our preffered group of peeople. If you had access to Officers board on this forum you would never put up a comment like this as we spend a lot of time each week trying to decide who will come and who will sit and I can guarantee you that we don't have list of 'preffered people'. It's like a stab in the back when we try to accomodate all and rotate people every week. We can't change full setups and crate complete new group evry week as we need good tanks, healers and dpss so if we take some lower geared tank, healer, dpss we have to have someone who know's tactics and is geared enough to make up for it. If we decided to let full new grp in it would most likely be wipe fest for whole night. Instead of this we try to replace 3-5 people every raid to make it smooth and fun runs for everyone instead of learning it all from scratch with whole new group.

This problem is bugging us for some time as we have a lot of good geared people signing up so we are discussing switching to 25man raids at the moment. I believe we can put 18-20 guildes in a raid and pug few dpss. This should resolve our issues with people siting raids as everyone should get in this way (everyone who meet's raiding criteria and I belive there's 18-20 people ready to raid 25man).

Yes, this rotation policy, are you quite sure it is working? I sat out last weeks toc 10, with you, sil, and tesh going (sil as dps but his main IS tanking). This week, I am shunned for sil and tesh (again) even though I sat out last week. The reason I was given was that Sil didn't tank and that tesh signed up before me so, rotation? And about onyx on wedensday, says on your raiding rules that the offtank should have 30000 unbuffed hp, and when I checked hoegs wowarmoury for that day, he was, in tanking gear, 28000 hp, so I wonder, how does this acutally fit with the raiding requirements. Makes at least me wonder what the going on, if we have rules, should we not follow them?

gorhq wrote:Yes, this rotation policy, are you quite sure it is working? I sat out last weeks toc 10, with you, sil, and tesh going (sil as dps but his main IS tanking). This week, I am shunned for sil and tesh (again) even though I sat out last week. The reason I was given was that Sil didn't tank and that tesh signed up before me so, rotation? And about onyx on wedensday, says on your raiding rules that the offtank should have 30000 unbuffed hp, and when I checked hoegs wowarmoury for that day, he was, in tanking gear, 28000 hp, so I wonder, how does this acutally fit with the raiding requirements. Makes at least me wonder what the going on, if we have rules, should we not follow them?

Last week we took people without achievements in first place. That's why Tesh and Sil were there (both haven't got achievement at that stage as we had me and you tanking previous runs) and I was there as well to have 1 tank who done it before. Same happened with few DPSs like Schaah who joined because he didn't have achiev. You were online so you've seen at least 4 peeps getting achiev at the end of the run. Here's your answer to rotation. Think about it.

This week I'm sitting as well and not complaining about it. We have too many people to guarantee spot every second week. Some people sit for 2 weeks. Might be I will be sitting next one too as there's you and Hoeg at off tanks up to the task and waiting to get in.

You can't blame us for not having spot for you every raid or every second raid as it is impossible with 5 geared tanks in guild (you, Silahco, Teshija, Hoegenisse, me). One of us will have to sit for two weeks in a row at some stage.

Also I offered you DPS spot on your warlock when I asked you to sit as tank so it's not fair on your side again as I was trying to compensate you for not coming as tank and wanted to take you in as DPS. Remember this? Guess not...

As to raiding requirements. Read them once more and check where I said it's not set in stone and if someone's there and there about he should check with us wheather he/she could come. From what I remember you were off tanking ToC10 with 28k HP too. Am I wrong with this?

I understand you are upset as you didn't get in 2 weeks in a row. Same goes for other people too. When Tesh and Sil were not there you didn't ask 'what about them?'.

I don't want to argue with you here. You are upset and think we forgot about you. Fair enough - you have right to feel this way. I think you should just come to us and say what's bugging you and how could we sort it out instead of accusing us while we try to do our best changing peeps in raids.

I think you misunderstand me a bit, I have no, absolutely no, complaints about last weeks raid. I remember vividly you asking me to stand down and I was happy to do so, if you remember? I too believe we should talk on vent or whatnot, its better, but, you are not quite accurate about the raiding team rules, our first encounter in toc was oct 18:th, the rules came out oct 21:st, so, as far as I gather, they cant be official until they are official? And yes, of course its not set in stone with the hp and such, but then again, IF someone isn't to be in a raid, please can we tell before hand? I mean, so someone have a chance to at least pug it. It took me completely off guard that hoeg, now tanking, took that spot in onyx, but thats life I guess.

cheers

I will also give you some better idea as to how it all works and how many 'free' spots we have each raid.

On healers part it's relatively easy. We need 3 healers and we have 4 who are up to the task: Shanla, Abot, Happytree, Beregen. Since we need 3 in every raid and we have 4 we can easily rotate them and only 1 healer will have to sit every 3 weeks or so (we just replace 1 healer every week so they sit once every 3 raids).

On tanks it's harder. We need only 2 tanks and we have 5 who want to come: Kayila, Silahco, Teshija, Hoegenisse, Buculus. This means that 3 tanks will have to sit every week and with full rotation there will always be 1 tank who will sit two weeks in a row at some stage. Simple maths.

Hardest part is on DPSs. We have only 5 spots and usually 10+ people who want to come. Yet we have to keep balance between melee and ranged ones. We have to think about having classes with interrupts for some bosses as well so we can't just fill group in with ranged or take just melee o rtake random people. We also need some particular amount of DPS in raid as last boss has enrage timer. If we decide to take 2 lower DPSs we must have 3 high ones to compensate for it. This means we can't change full 5 as there's no 10 high dpss in our guild (by high I mean over 4k). That's why on DPSs front we can rotate 2-3 people top every raid.

I hope this will clarify why you see same healers in raids (we don't have other ones - just 4 up to the task unless you think we have more. If so please list them here). As to the tanks - 2 spots for 5 peeps. Someone will have to sit for 2 weeks in a row at some stage. Last week was different as we were trying to get achievements for people. On DPSs front I think I said enough and you as rider should know what we're up to.

gorhq wrote:I think you misunderstand me a bit, I have no, absolutely no, complaints about last weeks raid. I remember vividly you asking me to stand down and I was happy to do so, if you remember? I too believe we should talk on vent or whatnot, its better, but, you are not quite accurate about the raiding team rules, our first encounter in toc was oct 18:th, the rules came out oct 21:st, so, as far as I gather, they cant be official until they are official? And yes, of course its not set in stone with the hp and such, but then again, IF someone isn't to be in a raid, please can we tell before hand? I mean, so someone have a chance to at least pug it. It took me completely off guard that hoeg, now tanking, took that spot in onyx, but thats life I guess.

cheers

I understand you mate and agree that we should let people know in advance that they won't get in. Fair enough. We are aware of it and working on it. Shanla was trying to do it this week and let everyone know a day or 2 days in advance. It's not always easy though. Having raids on Wedensdays and Sundays still leaves some time to pug them before reset as our last guild run is on Sunday and if you know you're not in on, let's say, Saturday you still have 4 days to pug it (Satruday evening, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday). This is not that bad unless you are working towards our raiding times on Wednesdays and Sundays - in this case, yes, letting you know you're not in on Saturday leaves you with only Saturday evening and Sunday to pug it which might not be easy.

As to raiding rules - yes, you are correct. We announced them after this raid but we were working on them well in advance and we put such requirements on offical forums having YOU in mind as well as viable off tank even though you were not there with your stats at that stage. That's why I said it's not set in stone and even if you were still at 28k HP you would have been considered viable OT for ToC10.

Let's have a chat when we meet on vent again mate I hope we'll sort it out. It's not easy to make everyone happy

OK i think i need to reffary here a bit...

I agree on the part of Enounsing ahead of time who will come on the raid aspecialy the raid on Sunday (on wensday its still early in the week and enought time to PuG)...

I also agree whit Buc here we TRY to do the best we can to get this to work for everybody. The thing is we all cant raid all the time thats why we cant have Fixt 10 man raiding groups couse then we never get to raid and as for enounsing raids sure we could say we enouse them every week at the same time but than we have a stampe insteed. As for the rules well thouse are more liek guildlines to help Players understand what is required of them and not written in stone. We dont put this rules there to "cut" players ,who knowe ther class and limitation, out we put them there to let pepoul ,who might not knowe there class that well, knowe what is the "standar" or "requiremnt" for that raid.

As for MS and OS well sins we are not a Hardcore Guild we try to accomadate players who choose to change there MS if they want to. Ofc that might not sounds fair that someone changes spec from week to week and take loot from other players but we are eploying a sort of honor system here and hope pepoul dont get greedy just becouse of it (at least if i see it i will crack down on it).

I knowe you IRL gorhq and i knowe your not trying to be mean. You like to have rules (there is no point having them if your not gona follow them) that are followed and that way if everyone follow them it will all be fair. The thing here is that comming up whit this rules is not that easy and some tweeking might be needed to get them to work. Also i think many of use officers in the guild have alot to do but we are slowly chipping away at the problem.

Critic is always welcome But i think me and buc have explain how we try to solve this problem whit raiding we have. But I would like to hear what type of system you would like us to use so that we can be more fair?